Glenn:

So, Sauna Talk meets Sauna Talks on this podcast episode, and I want to thank Bolek for reaching out to me, in the world being small, you have initiated a very interesting way to advance business through entrepreneurial-ism. And I was hoping that you could share with our listeners at Sauna Talk a little bit about your project and how it came about. And how would you explain it to folks in the world of encapsulating and in a short answer what your project in business is about?

Bolek:

Sure, thanks. Thanks for having me. And thanks for this chance. Well, first of all, I’m a sauna lover myself, I’ve been going for sauna for well over a decade, and I really enjoy this place as a place where you can think outside of your normal box, outside of your normal, you know, areas zones and people in groups, and then you can actually sit and relax. But when you relax, and then you’re intrapreneur you think, you have finally the time to think, without any interruptions, digital, phones, notifications, emails, meetings, you are there for yourself. And when I realized that, in two of my previous companies, I’m actually came up with a product ideas sitting in a sauna, and I’ve implemented these products, and then all of a sudden say; OK, I mean, but why others can do it. There must be a way to share that passion to sauna, that moment when you can relax, chill and actually think in a different way to create something to feel more creative. And doing business for over 20 years that I’m doing; I’ve recently decided to start helping other people other entrepreneurs to grow their companies wisely. And that wisely comes from wisdom, from talking to people who have been there. So, I decided; okay, I love saunas, I’ve done some business in the past, you know, let’s meet people that also are trying to do the same. And they’re probably walking through the same principles, the same challenges, right? Let’s put them in a heater or at least their heating zones, and then let’s talk about business in a sauna. That’s where it all sort of began, then that’s where it started.

Glenn:

And the way you structured in the name…is this a company or a project? How would you define what it is? And what is the name of it?

Bolek:

The name is SaunaGrow. And this is the name of the project. It is the only project run by my British company. Many years ago, I’ve established a company in Britain and now I’m using that company for the only SaunaGrow product, so this is the only thing that we do right now. And then the name, you know, is combining what we do, it’s Sauna and we’re helping growing the company. So, it’s as simple as it is.

Glenn:

Yeah. Fabulous. Can you explain a little bit about the structure of SaunaGrow, and how you have brought together a team; a team, a mentor team. Can you share with us a little bit about that?

Bolek:

Yes, that was important element of the holistic approach because you know, one person can only have one sort of history of his or her experiences, right. But if you combine it with others, you can create something that in it as a group as a holistic approach is actually a value to entrepreneurs if they’re trying to, to grow their business. So, I’ve combined a group of highly self-selected and trusted people from my own network that had skills that I was missing. So, I knew that if I would invite to this project people exactly like me. Five bald bearded men, you know from Northern Poland. That would not make sense, right? Because there is no diversity in that approach. So we have, you know, men and women from different, you know whenever we have a lawyer, we have a personal response to or experience in building teams and more like a psychological approach of HR, we have an experienced CTO, so all of that combines into the set of skills that quite often C-level, CEOs, entrepreneurs are missing on their own, and they’re either need to hire the skills outside, or until they can afford hiring the right skills, they have to have somebody to consult these things with. So that was how we got the team of five mentors, but that was the easy part, because then I needed to make sure that they love Sauna as well. And that they can do you know, mentoring sessions also in English so it’s bilingual mentoring that we provide. And that boils down to the five of us that I think we can, you know, offer quite a holistic approach to.

Glenn:

Beautiful, you know, what comes to mind when you say that Bolek is that one of my most favorite expressions is embrace constraints, because they’re blessings in disguise, they allow us to think more creatively. And what you’ve challenged yourself and building this team, this network of five mentors, it sounds like you’ve really drilled into finding a very small subset of few professionals willing to join the team who love sauna. That’s a very admirable subset.

Bolek:

Indeed, yes. But I mean, when you actually, I’ve been the Co-creating 15 businesses, up to now many of them simultaneously. And even if this business is working in different industries, different segments, kind of similar skills are needed, because there are people still in the teams, you’re building teams to deliver something for the customer, then there’s some selling, there’s some marketing, there are some elements that are pretty much the same in different companies. So, it’s easier to get the skills that are needed to have done and then you only apply a sauna layer on it, to be able to maintain, and it’s not only about the heat and the sauna itself, but they have to be able to speak in a way that you can be done in 15 minutes, because you won’t be able to see more on the one session.

Glenn:

That’s a beautiful point. And again, it’s a constraint. I mean, when you apply these constraints to the process, you really… in the idea of sitting on a sauna bench, and being able to distill and communicate very clearly and effectively, it is a challenge. But when we’re faced with a constraint like that, like I do some of my best communication when I am speaking with people whose English is not their primary language, because I’m very forced to really think about what I’m trying to get across, so I can imagine there’s an element to that, where you’re conducting business on the sauna bench, but you can only be sitting on that bench for so long.

Bolek:

Sure. And there are some advantages and disadvantages of that. I mean, there’s disadvantages that yes, when you get tired, you get lack of air, it’s especially the sauna is small one, and then these are the disadvantages. And of course, usually we’re doing sessions in like, you know, three or four attempts, but you know, sessions, so it takes an hour and a half an hour, an hour and a half. And we do several sessions, you know, with relaxing in the meantime. So, we also do talk outside, right if it’s convenient if it doesn’t disturb others in public saunas, but still, the fact that you’re actually in a sauna also gives you the way to approach your challenges your things in a completely different manner and surrounding, right. Many people feel so creative. I mean, I had many meetings with people that after the session, they said;

“Bolek, I wouldn’t imagine that I would open that much right in front of you, right, we barely knew each other we just met, you know, here and before the meeting, and you know, I was thinking about NDA and all of that before you know, signing and now I’ve shared everything with you.”

Glenn:

Do these sessions happen in a particular sauna, in Poland, in where you live in Poland, or do you use different facilities for your sauna grow sessions?

Bolek:

We do have an official partner in sauna spa that that we use mostly most often. And this is a big wellness with eight saunas. So, it’s easier to find a suitable place that it’s you know, both a public place, but you can actually be on your own in a sauna so you don’t disturb others. That’s crucial, very important. I cannot imagine talking business with some other people and suddenly about the confidentiality right. But it’s also about the loyalty the relax of the sauna, that you cannot, you know, mess up with that. But quite often we are meeting in a different sauna; I mean, if we had meetings, I think about 20 different saunas across Europe. Sometimes when we’re traveling.

Glenn:

Cool, that’s awesome. Can you share a little bit more about this facility you’re speaking about? Is it in Gdańsk?

Bolek:

It’s actually in Reda. So, it’s north of Gdańsk. It’s a smaller city north of Gdańsk like 30 minutes’ drive from Gdańsk, definitely the best in the northern Poland.

Glenn:

Can you tell us about the sauna? Like from the moment you arrived. I’m asking because a lot of our listeners are in the United States, in the concept of a community sauna or, you know, like we have in a town, we may have a community center, you know, but the community center may have a pool, there may be a gymnasium, and they may have yoga on Saturdays or something like that. But here in the United States, the concept of a sauna like I’m sensing, where you go with the eight different songs and stuff like that, that’s very unique. So, could you do us a favor and just describe the facility a little bit for us?

Bolek:

Sure. The one that we are parking with is actually a part of the waterpark. So, there’s a you know, a lot depends on you know, slides, pools and all of that. It’s like in the same building, yet, it is a different place, you’re buying tickets to enter the space separately. So, it’s like more for relaxing, right. And this one typically has, as I’ve said, several saunas that are to steam rooms and different temperatures, different sizes of the saunas, the biggest one can fit 80 people.

Glenn:

In the hot room?

Bolek:

In the hot room 80 people. Yeah. And to be honest, this is not the biggest one because they’re very, very recently there was one built in the south of Poland, in Czeladź, it’s even named the Colosseum and it looks like it is a Colosseum. It can have 300 people in one go, it is actually the biggest sauna in the world right now. It’s going to be written in the genius records book. So, it’s going to be the biggest one. But this is mainly for the show, right for our purposes for the theater, like shows, that the big offices, and the ones that we are using are usually the smaller ones, because we don’t want to take you know, the two of us or the three of us, because sometimes our two business guests or two mentors, depending on the setting, but usually one on one. So, we don’t want to take their whole sauna for 80 people just when the two of us is going to  use it…

Glenn:

So what’s the name of the facility? And is it Redda? Is that how we…?

Bolek:

Reda that’s the name of a city and it’s Aqua Park Reda.

Glenn:

How much is it to go into just the relaxing sauna part of the Aqua Park?

Bolek:

And I think the daily passes something around $20, you can stay there for as long as you want. Right. So that was for shorter, you know, for tickets, but you know, like the hour, three hours, but always take a full day because I don’t want to look at my watch, even though I don’t have a watch my son of course. Right? But I don’t like thinking about time, I don’t be constrained with time.

Glenn:

So, if you could walk us through this, would it be a matter of meeting a client at the Aqua Park? And then you’d have your mentors with you and you would go in as a group? And you would start the process of informal talking through and ideating or do you have a more structure to your sessions?

Bolek:

Most of the meetings are one on one, so it’s one mentor and one customer and usually I’m asking my customers to if there’s anything that they believe that I should read before the meeting, they have an opportunity to send it over to me. So depending on the challenge that they had, sometimes there’s a chance for me to be a little more prepared right but even without that I’m always doing a research So who am I meeting with right well what the person is doing what’s the business what it is I can think of even before that meeting how most probably I could help, what’s the size of the of the company, what’s the size of their of the venture at the moment, but most of the time people are suggesting what is it that they want to talk about, what is it that made them you know invite me and then go you know without specific mentor because the more we do beforehand the better we can assign the right mentor to that meeting right so we have the right people sitting in on these benches and discussing but as we arrived to the aquapark we usually meet already in we know within the spa areas and so we already know with bathrobes or towels, and we briefly discuss… I’m actually walking them through the whole facility because quite often they either haven’t been there yet, or they even haven’t been sauning you know before so I’m actually letting them in the sauna world as well. It’s not just the business mentoring, but I have to tell them you know how to do it, how to do it properly, you know that there’s take some water, take some rest, we’ll do a few sessions. So, it’s also the introduction, even though you know, we do have some blog posts on our website that we sent beforehand to the guests and, and invite them to get familiar with the rules of the sauna itself. And then we start a few sessions depending on the timing.

Glenn:

Fabulous, you know, what comes to mind is when you think about getting together as a client, with a client or prospective client, you know, there’s a very common method of; well, let’s meet at this coffee shop, and we can get a quiet corner and, you know, I’ll pull up my laptop, and then we can chat kind of thing. I mean, that’s typically how it’s done. But, you know, I applaud your level of thinking, because what you’re able to do is sort of leverage this facility that has a very expansive, you know these eight different saunas, and it sounds to be quite expansive, and much more dynamic than, say this coffee shop environment. But what you’re able to do, I think, and again, I’m applauding your methodology and that it’s lowering the guard to your customer to your client, and bringing them into this expansive space of mind and thinking and being for more collaborative work. Is this… did I touch upon an element to this that is really key to your mission with SaunaGrow? Is that how you see it? Is that how it formed?

Bolek:

It is very important part of that, because when you’re actually in a sauna, you’re free from your laptop, we don’t work on the Excel in sauna. And so now that’s quite often when we get into the cooperation with the customer. So, after the initial meeting, or after the meeting in Sauna, we also do work like regular normal people outside right in the offices or through zoom conferencing, like in the video, right? But when we are in the sauna, there’s no phone, there’s no you know, notifications, no interruptions. So, this is the time when you can relieve your creativity on a completely different level, right. And most of all, you are outside of your place, why people are meeting in a coffee? So, they pull that person outside of the desk, right? So, the negotiation position also is more equal, it’s like on like on the common ground, right? But in the sauna is a step further. You’re not only taking the person away from their comfort zone, but you’re putting them outside of their comfort zone. If they’re not sauning on a regular basis. Initially, they feel naturally stressed. But usually, as you probably know, when you’re inviting somebody new the Sauna World, if they like it, they will like it, they’re going to move in a few minutes, like five or 10 minutes, they already relaxed, totally different approach, chilled and way more open. So, we are using that kind of stress quite knowledgeably, right? So, we know that that’s how it happens. Unless somebody is a sauna freak like we are right? They will feel uncomfortable initially. But then to open.

Glenn:

Yes. How many different clients have you brought into this experience, roughly? And the second part of that question is, is there an example where somebody was like, maybe my cat trying to bring my cat into the bathtub where maybe they just didn’t want any part of that physical space?

Bolek:

And well, we’ve had over 100 sessions, until now, throughout the last two years when the SaunaGrow was created, right when it was launched. And, of course, there are some people that they already know, they don’t like saunas. They’ve tried, they don’t feel well. And of course, these people were not posting them in sauna. So, we’re just meeting in a cafe, or in a park or like in a covid, we’re just taking them for a walk. So, we don’t do it in a cost basis. We just got in park. And that’s also fine. And I also had the client, a lady that she wasn’t feel comfortable with going with him, you know, strange men to the sauna. And that’s completely understandable. So, with these people, we are, you know, conducting the same mentoring just in different surroundings, but still trying to make sure that it’s outside of their desk, outside of the conference room, outside of their comfort zone, but not pushing it too much if they don’t feel like it, right. For other reasons some people can do sauna.

Glenn:

Yes, yeah. So, with say 100 different sessions, how many have been sauna and how many have been at a different scenario, like in the park or going through, you know, some other element beat that is not sauna?

Bolek:

Because of the COVID here and a lot of public saunas are actually shut down. That was around 70% was in a sauna. Not COVID that would be probably 95%.

Glenn:

Yeah, that’s great. That’s so cool. And I mentioned before we started our session that, you know, we are kindred spirits, not only because your podcast is only one letter different than Sauna Talk – my podcast. But our commonality is that I have done a lot of business in the sauna not as much in a collaborative way. But you explain it so well about how when one is in a sauna, it’s a beautiful opportunity for the mind in the expansiveness of the mind, I always keep a notepad and my own private sauna. And I’ve solved a lot of the world’s problems with my business, on the sauna bench, and I know you and I share that. Similarly, there’s a lot of great collaboration through I would call them friends that I’ve had on the sauna bench in expanding you know, some business relationships through friends that I have so I very much feel this kindred spirit to you. And I just want to applaud what you’ve done is to formalize something that you and I know so very well into formalize it into a business is, is very commendable. In the question that I want to lead into is, do people think you’re crazy for this concept? Have you had to defend or explain yourself more than you thought when you develop SaunaGrow?

Bolek:

Yes, but this is also part of the marketing strategy, right? The more they talk about you, the more popular the concept becomes, right? But it was, in fact, the most difficult it was to explain to the Sauna lovers right. Because for the business people they don’t until they actually use the sauna until they actually get in there. They don’t feel that this is like a breach of the rules, you know, same rules of being relaxing, not talking in a sauna being completely quiet. But for those people who are proceeding sauna, as it relaxed only, no audio, no music, no, you know, talking, then for them, it’s difficult to understand. I mean, why you are getting into my temple with your boots, with your muddy boots, right, this is this is exactly the type of the breach of the reason for it to exist. So, that was where I had to explain. But most of the cases when they hear that we are respecting the privacy of others, we never talk with some third-party people in a sauna. We usually take the sound off for the exclusive use so we don’t you know interrupt with anybody also outside of the sauna when we’re discussing it. I’m also a sauna master myself, so I’m conducting sauna ceremonies and shows with sauna, so I know where to where to stop, and where’s that, you know, limit and where, how it should be done. And I have a huge respect towards it. So sometimes I had to defend that. But it was more to the sauna lovers and the fans than the business people actually.

Glenn:

Oh, that’s very fascinating. And I understand that, you know, part of the thing about sauna that that is so endearing to me is that there is a tradition to it. I prescribed to the more of the Finnish style of sauna and the irony on the Finnish style of sauna is there actually is a huge amount of freedom to it, because there isn’t a timer in the hot room, there isn’t a structure to it. You know, when you’re hot, you go sit on the bench and when you’re cold, you go leave. And that’s more of the sort of Lake Country, rural sauna out in nature, where it’s a private sauna, you basically do what you want, you know, that and that’s what I grew up with, in 30 years I’ve been taking sauna under that style, if you will. It sounds like in Poland, and you are you are a sauna master. So, it sounds that you know, I think of the German style of sauna that is a little more. And it’s popular in Italy to this; orcas in the more theatrical group session where there’s a leader, you know, through the cycling of rounds. I’m wondering if you could speak to that when you consider… let’s assume then that these are two extreme examples of the sauna process one being very freeform, you do what you want, you’re all on your own. And the other a little bit more… Well, a lot more, you know, on the other extreme, very structured. We’re going in, we’re going to do this and we’re going to leave together. I’ll ask it in a two-part question. Where are you on that spectrum and how to most people sauna in Poland, given that spectrum?

Bolek:

I think I’m closer to this Finnish approach actually, the freedom and the more sort of concealed or smaller groups and actually more chat between the two, were asked there on the on the other side we see the show we see you know the 300 people sauna with a music with lasers with smokes with you know, the sense and so on. Because this is a show this is a theater, right? This is way more like a party, this is not a relaxed loyally, you know, part of it, this is a party. But what helps me in here is that just shows that there is a way or that there’s more than one way, the more one proper way of using sauna there’s one extreme being a show in the theatre, the one being, you know, completely, you know, silence and on your own with no, you know interactions with anybody else right. So, SaunaGrow is somewhere in the middle, but I would say closer to this Finnish approach. And also in Finland, it’s very popular actually to meet in business or politics, right that the prime minister or president there will actually meeting in a sauna on the regular basis, right, conducting business, I’m definitely closer to this part. Maybe because I just love relaxing in a sauna as well.

Glenn:

Right on, right on. Yes. And what also comes to mind is it is very common in Finland, that companies will have a sauna on sites like much… Well, here in America, a lot of companies will, will have like a room where there’s like an exercise room or something within a corporate setup, but obviously Finland being the home to 3 million saunas, and you know, 5 million people and stuff, it’s so ingrained in our culture that… so you know, that a lot of businesses will have a sauna and there’s a great expression of in sauna, everybody is equal. So, the CEO could be sitting on the sauna bench right next to one of the machine workers. And they are equal. And I find that egalitarian nature to be so welcoming. And I would gather that that ethos, or that way of being can help with SaunaGrow, where the mentor and client relationship is equalized, while you’re sitting on the bench visiting, Yes?

Bolek:

That’s true, that also helps that that helps in this openness, that helps in actually going or reaching the point the actual challenge way sooner, because the guards are in a lower, you know, way sooner than they would normally be, right. I went this is a customer This is a you know, service provider, or this is the buyer. That’s not what it is about, right? You are getting equal very soon, but looking at the Polish culture of actually using sauna this is nowhere near as it is in Finland, I know maybe, you know, three or four offices that actually have saunas in their offices in Poland. And very rarely, they’re actually used, right. So, it’s a fun, nice thing to have, but people don’t feel comfortable, right? And going out in a sauna with your peers. With all the potential negative impacts of that, it’s not part of the culture, it’s not natural yet. So, I don’t think that it will be you know, ever as popular as it will as it is right in Finland, but I really missed it on for that I’ve been there several times in that actually know that, you know, it’s the Nordic both, you know, Norway, Sweden as well. They have saunas by the sea, public saunas, that they’re empty that as long as you put in upwards, you know, after you finish right and you clean after yourself, then you can you’re free to use I mean, this paradise ride for a sauna lover.

Glenn:

Absolutely. You said it so beautifully. Tell us about Sauna in Poland? Is it gaining steam? Has it kind of been steady, is there more influence from the west meaning say like the I think I got my geography right. Is there is there more info influence coming from Germany are more up from the north of the Baltic from Finland? How would you describe sauna culture in Poland?

Bolek:

I mean, it is definitely growing. And that’s and that’s really nice. So some more and more people are getting to use that there are more facilities being opened. And more on the south of Poland. Probably that Italian approach, you know, from the southeast is pushing more or maybe the German part as well. So, they are more and more popular. And mainly, I think it’s going to the direction of the show. So bigger saunas with a sauna masters, because once you’ve experienced a sauna show, it doesn’t necessarily need to be loud music and lasers and all that which sometimes it’s on like the world championships of our courses. That’s how it works. There’s a story there are costumes that there’s you know, all the theater around it. But they’re also sauna masters that just deliver the loyalty – the relaxing show and it’s also beautiful, right? Well, the calm music with it with it. Yes, waving towels, right, but on a common basis. So, this is like combining the two but definitely the theater part is more popular, it’s easier to get it through the media because it’s a show, it’s something that you can really, you know, express yourself. So, it’s I think it’s going more into the into that direction. So, more and more places bigger for bigger events as well.

Glenn:

Thank you. Yeah, Bolek tell us about your goals? Is SaunaGrow your main project right now your main business? And if so, what are your goals? What would you like to say in a year from now, five years? Where would you like to take this project. And again, first of all, is this the main thing you’re doing right now?

Bolek:

It is, I’m also a venture partner in VC funds. But definitely SaunaGrow and actually helping customers throughout the sauna, it’s not only meeting in a sauna, right? You have to also, you know, understand that they have a picture that we’re not just full time sitting on the bench, I would love to, but perhaps it wouldn’t be that healthy, right to sit all the time, like eight hours, like, you know, just going out for lunch. That’s not what we do, right. So, a lot of these first-time meetings, or occasionally meetings are happening in a sauna, but then you know, when there’s actual work that needs to be done. And that is less of a creative approach, but more of an operational that needs to be done. It’s done outside of Sauna, and we’re supporting customers like this. And definitely is a full-time job for most of the mentors that can be for me and a few others. And this is a growing and scalable approach even though it’s it consumes time. So, it’s like, a lot of these, like support sessions are based on time and hourly, hourly basis, but we’re also getting on as shareholders of this company. So, we’re growing them, we are taking part, we are taking equity in the companies that we are supporting. So, it’s way more complex than just a consultancy, you know, by the hour. But it also very nicely mingles with the venture capital thing that I do, because I’m also an investor myself, and very often I can see within my customers, the customers that I would like to invest in, or vice versa, in the companies that we invest as a VC fund, they often need some support in the growth, right? So, it is nicely overlapping and we are using, you know, both of these worlds, right. But until two years ago, I’ve been a full-time CEO to the fast growing company, when we started from 50 people to 750 people on the team within three years. So that was quite a big growth. And that was one of my last companies where I was, you know, full time involved in a one company. But now I’m about 10 companies that I’m supporting.

Glenn:

Oh, that’s a fabulous, thank you for outlining that. That sounds very strategic and logical that the VC component of what you do ties in so well to SaunaGrow. And I get it. And again, I think you frame that up beautifully where the sitting on the sauna benches is the show, but I can understand that being a very small slice of the overall pie of the consultative value that you’re bringing to clients. So, thanks for explaining that. How about… when you mentioned scalable, what do you see for the future for SaunaGrow as its own entity?

Bolek:

I mean, definitely there the scalable part of that comes with equity, that we are joining companies. And sometimes when we see that, we like the team, we like the segment that the company is developing, we like what they’re doing as people right with the teams. And then we are offering to lower our hourly rate in exchange for some equity. And then we are becoming a long-term investors’ and actually co-founders or, you know, maybe advisors on the, on the E-shop price or play share option plan, you know, something like this, but that’s scalable, because ultimately, when we’ll be invested in several companies, we will actually be able to not only to rely on monthly payments on all the packages of ours, right. But something being part of growing something together, right? You will probably grow in with a few other mentors to do to add some extra skills into this. But I really wouldn’t like to make it a huge company. Even though that’s what I’ve done in the past as well.

Glenn:

You see, you would or would not like to make it a huge company?

Bolek:

I wouldn’t know. I mean, it’s also a great, great book company of one. I’m sure if you’re familiar with that. But this is approached of the freedom of having a smaller company. I was in 150 people company and that’s not freedom. That’s a great possibility. So, the smaller team have more experienced people have, the easier it is, the more time you can spend with your family, the more time you can spend on your hobby. And you know, it’s not like a tripod of balance. This is massively important. So, I definitely don’t want to grow that company more than a dozen people.

Glenn:

Beautiful. Thank you, that worked very well said. Could you share with us…I don’t know if it’s if it’s confidential or whatever. But could you walk us through a client and in how the development happened if one comes to mind and that’s it shareable as a in this conversation about you met on the sauna bench, you did some mentoring, you chose to invest in there out in the marketplace, does a company come to mind that you’d like to kind of walk us through as an example of SaunaGrow?

Bolek:

Yes, there is one of course I wouldn’t mention the name but the story right and how we can work through that. There was a gentleman that approached me saying that I’m a CEO of that company, I’ve mentioned that 750 people and he wanted to do the same. He wanted to do that, the competition to that company, right then, okay, I mean, let’s meet but you know, it’s a competition. So, I can’t really help you in making a competition to my own company. But I’ve actually walked him through the industry, the segments, and after the session, he realized; hey, there’s no place for us anymore, right? I mean, you’ve taken all the place, so we have to do something else. So, after the session, we you know, we’ve been there always and then few months later, he said; hey, I found that something else, I want you to help me with that. And that the challenge that that he had, you know, with his other co-founders, they were extremely good in setting, which is very unlikely for startups, usually startups are struggling in setting they’re good at something else, right. But the sale part is actually difficult for them. And they were very good in setting but they suck in e-commerce, they either have no idea. I mean, how to approach or how to how… they knew that it has to be an important part of the business, but they had no skills, actually, to do that the right way. At the same time, they knew that, you know, we as mentioned some time ago, we had the skills, and they knew that they are not in the position yet to hire, you know, people at the you know, with like 20 years of experience, but as mentors, as supporters, as people that will lead them on a strategic level. That’s a different story. So, they asked us actually to hire the team like that. Well, I wouldn’t say Junior but maybe a regular e-commerce people that we would then able we are able to mentor and to guide them on the strategic levels, but without the full-time involvement. So, we were meeting several times in a sauna, we were meeting a lot, also outside of the sauna. But there’s all these up now the company is hiring together with a sales team roughly about 300 people. And that was all possible within a year from start.

Glenn:

Wow. And it all began on the sauna bench?

Bolek:

It all began on the sauna bench and then deciding that; hey, we can go in that direction. I mean, that place has already taken let’s think a different one. And that’s you know, how we knew that how they knew that we could help them and lead them through the way.

Glenn:

Are most of your clients Polish or not necessarily?

Bolek:

Not necessarily. I’ve been also assisting for instance; an Italian company enter into the Polish market. So does e-commerce actually a grocery company. So, you can get your food delivered order online and get it delivered from an existing you know, Walmart’s and different stores. So, it’s like a sense of that type of company that was first established in Italy, quite successful and then wanted to move into Poland. And we’re helping them out. But not only into the entrance to the new market, but also into their development as a company for the future expansions in different countries on the continent.

Glenn:

Great. Well, you’re a busy guy. It sounds like you have a lot going on. I want to thank you for visit. I’m not looking to close down. But I thought, you know, if you want to ask me some questions, you know, great, we could do that. But there’s a few more sort of rapid-fire questions. Very sauna related that I’d love to chat with you on. But I’ll start our search with you, is there anything we didn’t cover that you’d like to visit with as it relates to SaunaGrow and then lead into anything you want to ask me?

Bolek:

Yes, yes, indeed. I’m very curious to know more about the American approach to the sauna. Because I kind of see that there’s growing interest in the sauna world. But if you would ask me though, the US is not something that is strictly associated with sauna right to begin with. But yeah, sauna like culture. I mean, how do you actually, and do you think that there’s any link to business and sauna or is it an unlikely thing, but let’s start with a culture?

Glenn:

Okay. Well, as you know, this is a vast, vast country, and it’s very hard to encapsulate an answer that question, given how diverse we are, you know, geographically and as a society and stuff, but I guess if I were to try to sum it up, I mean, you know, I look at Sauna in many different ways. But you know, for this answer, maybe if we looked at it sort of like rungs to a ladder perhaps and what what’s happening is there’s interest in growth across all rungs of the ladder, and so I’ll say the rungs in terms of like cost, just simply cost of saunas, and I’m only speaking about Private saunas, I’m not talking about you know, health clubs and hotels and stuff. So, in the world of private saunas, you know, this thing where in America a lot of people think sauna is an infrared cabin. And, and so that is an immediate departure from the rung of the ladder right there right off the gate. So, you have this very easily shippable, scalable businesses that are popping up where they’re just basically e-commerce resellers, just shipping these little panels that can be assembled in a living room. And people think that they’re in the world of sauna, they’ve read a lot about the health benefits of sauna. So that I would say is like the first rung of the ladder, and it’s hugely popular, even nail salons and massage studios are clicking by now on the Amazon button and getting you know, these infrared cabins delivered and they put a sign out front saying sauna, so we have that.

Then the sauna companies that have been around certain, you know, in our country, Tyloo luhilu. And Harvia are like the Coke and Pepsi of Sauna. And they’re doing extremely well. It’s been very, very busy since COVID. And it actually even started around when Dr. Gary Laukkanen study in 2016, when all over the media and in 2016, there was just like this bump of awareness for sauna at all levels of the ladder. So, yeah, so you have these Coke and Pepsi, they’re out there all over very well represented in different cities, through spa dealers and what have you. And so, people are getting into some of that way. Another rung up the ladder. And, you know, again, I’m doing this by cost. But you know, I believe I would also say that it’s by quality, you know, because they are related. My Space has always been the DIY, because of a couple of things. You know, the way sauna in America works Bolek is that if you called up a contractor and say I want to sauna at my cabin or sauna in my backyard, and most contractors will retreat and reach for the door to leave and say I’m out of here because it is quite… it’s a simple building, but it’s very complex. And contractors really have not, you know, up until recently, many, many contractors just didn’t want to touch it is too abstract, especially if you’re talking; well, electric and wood stoves each have their own challenges from a contractor perspective. And we’re a very litigious society here in America. So, you know, you’ve got the whole thing about the homeowner all worked up about the insurance company, and building inspectors coming around, and they see someone out in their backyard having a good time with a towel wrapped around them. And then they they’re reaching for their clipboard and said, this looks too good. It’s got to be illegal somewhere where’s it say in the manual, that we got to shut this guy down you know, but anyway, so that’s like, the rungs of the ladder from a residential side, I guess, you know, 123, you know, going up the ladder. It’s been very fun to helping people build their own saunas, because that’s been the offshoot of it, it’s back to this constraints’ we have this constraint and that it’s very difficult for a homeowner that wants to go into this world of an authentic sauna, and get it done. So, the DIY aspect has been very awesome. It’s been very fun and rewarding as people build their own. So that’s residential. You know, commercial it kind of goes without saying, but you know, I think I Mackell Island quite a bit. He wrote the iconic book sweats. Have you heard of this book, sweat? Yeah, so he’s got a really funny line that he shared with a Finnish mutual friend of ours, a Finnish friend and says, you know, in America, talking about commercial saunas; in America 80% of the saunas are bad and the other 20% are worse and there’s something unfortunate about that and that a lot of the commercial saunas that you know health clubs and whatnot they just want to check the box. So, there’s a lot of concessions made toward the quality of sauna that they choose. And then the maintenance guy he gets pissed off because people you know, the wall behind where the stove sits, is, you know, discolored because people throwing chlorine water on the rocks. So then comes up a sign that says no water on the rocks, and then they say this is a dry sauna only. And then you know, that sauna stove was probably not well maintained. So, you know, it gets closed for a month and a half, and then they put in an even cheaper sauna heater. So anyway, did I paint enough of a picture – a negative picture about sauna in America?

Bolek:

Well, the worst one.

Glenn:

Yeah, but you know, it’s this rungs of a ladder. The rungs of the ladder to me, is really the way to define it because, you know, people are really getting into it. And so, they’re climbing the rungs of the ladder to toward better and better sauna. So, I hope I’m not painting a negative picture about sauna in America.

Bolek:

How about mobile saunas?

Glenn:

Yeah, yeah, there’s another one about constraints. I mean, I built my first mobile sauna about 20 years ago. And I brought it around to like lakes and polar plunges, and this whole thing, but because of the municipal constraints, on getting permits for to operate a public sauna, it’s created this really awesome groundswell of creative entrepreneurs that are building mobile saunas, and bring it around to places much like the food truck movement where you’re not prescribed to some guy with his clipboard trying to shut you down or inspect you, you know you can mobilize at a brewery or by a lake, the whole virtual nature to it, where you have a following on social media or whatever, and people can book sessions. And the younger appreciation of collaborative gathering. It’s budding and the analogy that I’ve used for a while now, it reminds me of the craft beer market in America where these are early adopters of like-minded quality, you know, exceptionally cool experiences. So yeah, thank you for asking about mobile because it’s really dear to my heart. And it’s so beautiful to see sprouting up all over United States.

Bolek:

Talking about mobile, let me show you one thing, maybe I can share a screen and then we can see that as well. This is my mobile Sauna, the on… this is built completely from scratch, we actually had a trailer, right the container and we were building on top of that. And we’re actually the two co-founders of this project, that building the wall as a carpenter, the other one is starting into, you know, Asian contractions, she’s really, you know, into the design thing of things. But yes, I prefer Sauna that I specifically like, and we actually had a few SaunaGrow meetings in that Sauna physically as well.

Glenn:

I could see that I could see that happening. And a couple quick questions for you about your mobile sauna that you built. First thing that comes to mind is collaboration. I mean, how beautiful that you’ve done this project with? Did you say one other person or two others?

Bolek:

Two others. Yeah.

Glenn:

Is it jointly owned by the three of you?

Bolek:

Exactly. Each one of us has 30% of the outcome, that is the other picture.

Glenn:

And you know, what comes to mind on that, like in the United States you know, with pro sports, I mean, there’s like 84 baseball games in a season. So sometimes you’ll have three people that joined together and buy season tickets. Is that how you run your sauna? Do you look at the calendar and split it up who gets it and when?

Bolek:

Yes, I mean, theoretically, the deal is that I have one third of the timing, but of course, it’s that the sauna is there, you know, on wheels, not for without a reason, it’s also travels a lot. So, whenever it is in the area, then you know, I’m using it, sometimes I’m traveling to it, sometimes it stays for a longer in my garden, so it’s sometimes I take it for holidays. The other two co-founders are actually trying to monetize it. So, they’re, you know, selling tickets and they’re inviting others to join it. I only use it once for the CSR project that we had to follow for the hospices for that purpose but other than that this is you know, either SaunaGrow meetings or my own relaxing you know, my friends and family.

Glenn:

Oh, that’s beautiful. Fabulous. Thanks for sharing that, were you part of the build itself or did you have someone else built?

Bolek:

It was actually them to mainly that build it sauna more of the financing part so I’ve actually added a little bit more in cash they have added a little bit more in labor. But I’ve been you know to the place where it was created and actually helped a little bit but you know, compared to what they’ve done and they have actually designed it on their own from scratch so I’m you know, just the money guy here.

Glenn:

You’re not the nail pounder, you wrote the check for the nails.

Bolek:

Pretty much Yeah, somebody if I would touch the nails that it wouldn’t look like this.

Glenn:

So, the mobile sauna of which you are one third owner is to me, representative of who you are and how you are, you seem like a very collaborative person. And you like the involvement and engagement of others and I want to compliment you that with for you. I want to compliment you for that and you’re an inspiration to pull these kinds of things off. It takes a lot of great communication and trust. So, no question to that. I just want to make that observation. I love it.

Bolek:

I think it’s just dangerous to go solo, right? I’ve seen that so many times in business that the single founders very rarely, you know, succeed in business. And you have to have co-founders, you have to trust others, you have to have different sets of skills. And that project shows it right. I mean, the two guys were good in design were good in carpeting that there actually be able to do I wouldn’t be able to do that, right? We all shared the passion and the love for sauna has been we all wanted to have a mobile sauna. But you know, we have different skill sets that were added to the project. If we’re all compare carpenters, we wouldn’t have the money to build a sauna. If we were all you know, had the money, we wouldn’t have the skills to build it. It all adds up. And it’s exactly the same. It’s nice, actually parallel to the, the, you know, everything that you do. The more you know, you have the complex skills adding up to the overall picture, the easier it is to go right into the future.

Glenn:

A couple rapid fire questions, you can time by five minutes. And before I get into a few of mine, any other questions for me I went on and on about sauna in America, it’s really exciting to see it’s like craft brewing, better and better beer, more, more creative, a lot of great architecture coming into play with sauna design and building. Any other questions for me?

Bolek:

There is one, it’s about nudity in a sauna. Because this is something that divides Polish Sauna community quite sort of aggressively I would say that there is this approach that you know to make it healthy you have to you know, it can be wrapped in your towel if you want to, but definitely no swim costumes because it actually can burn and hurt you. How will sort of look in the US because even in Europe it looks differently from country to country.

Glenn:

I understand, I know I can understand how interestingly difficult it must be in Europe because basically it’s a lot smaller and yet the customs and traditions are so polarized; example, I mean Germany is covered a nude right, and how is it in Poland ? I’ll answer about America in simple but go ahead.

Bolek:

The one that the Sauna community is standing for is covered a nude as well but there are a lot of places especially like the gymnasiums, public swimming pools, that they theoretically they have in the rules that you should be naked but nobody’s you know really looking at it and nobody’s policing that’s not official policy. For a lot of people it is a constraint this is difficult to get naked in the sauna and treated as a natural part of using sauna.

Glenn:

Yep. Okay, here in America, it’s very simple; bathing suits all the time in a public environment. There is an exception Archimedes ban in San Francisco is COVID and nude, but even there, you know, if you want to, if you want to go naked, you go naked, if you want to wear a bathing suit, you wear a bathing suit. There are public facilities that are addressing this with, Tuesdays for men, and then Thursdays are for women. There is the Chicago sweat lodge and Chicago comes to mind is… it’s male only. And that’s just the way it is it was from the day the doors opened, it’s male only and that’s the way it works. There is this whole you know, gay thing going on, that has been in our culture for I don’t know, you could say back in the 60s 70s, sauna has this reputation of that we’ve had to overcome there were these you know, there’s some ill repute connotations that go with sauna and actually in municipal you know, code books and stuff that the sauna is often classified in the same realm as strip clubs and stuff. So, that’s the culture in America that that sauna has had as it relates to the nudity thing. And I could have said it better in other ways, but that’s how it is and how we understand it. But you know, there’s a new generation happening and the idea of coed is makes all the obvious sense in the world. But in America, we get freaked out about nudity, we’re a little a little different that way I mean, the idea of a German vibe here, outside like I say of Archimedes banya would say that’s an anomaly but I think that would get shut down. But you know, unfortunately, But that’s my interpretation of it.

Bolek:

Poland is definitely growing and there are many places, I think, you know, at least 100 places in Poland that you actually cannot go with swimming costume into the sauna. And you’ll be asked out, and in these places are still sometimes there are like, women on the evening strike. So, some women don’t feel comfortable in being in the same place for men are having them that’s okay, they can they can use these days that the men are not allowed. So that’s more common. And I think it’s going more towards the direction of the healthy approach without the limitations of being shy, right. But I can understand that this it’s not a common issue even in Europe, right. It’s, as I said, it’s different from country to country.

Glenn:

It’s very different from continent to continent. And I hope I’m explaining things in a rational way not… I’m not trying to draw judgment about one way being better than the other but it is known that, you know, to sit with a bathing suit on the sauna benches is not the natural way to go. So that’s unfortunate. I will say when I build saunas, or advise and help people that build saunas and stuff, and these are personal saunas, which is a whole different spectrum than what we’re talking about, but I really like the dimmer light system where led under the upper bench and then sconce lights on the wall, each of which controlled by dimmers is really awesome because you can create the vibe in your own sauna that works for you. And you know, COVID has been very well received by me because of my… I have a sauna in my backyard and a sauna at my cabin. And I’ve taken so many solo saunas, and I haven’t worn a bathing suit in a sauna since COVID. And I understand that that is totally the way to go you know it’s just the way to do sauna and you and I know that you know so but in the in the public domain it’s a different vibe in our country.

Bolek:

So, you must come to Poland then and I’ll show you that the right places right where it is natural and with towel is there only to protect the bench from the sweat, it’s not you know to cover up you know, people are protected bench right that’s…

Glenn:

Yeah. Cool. Cool. Any other questions? I got a few for you know, your mobile sauna so you’re tasting the ability to you know, one of the lovely things about a mobile sauna is that you can go to nature right like take it out in into nature and stuff. And so, you have a mobile sauna if you could bring it anywhere in the world and take a sauna, what’s the first place that comes to mind?

Bolek:

Finland, Finland, it’s I mean the lakes and also the cold water, they are the crystal-clear cold water with you know, outside of you know, the cities and then the population density being so low or Sweden as well you know, follows close enough to each other. My brother lives in Sweden. So, you know, I know the country already quite well. And so definitely, you know, up north – up north…

Glenn:

And by a cold Lake.

Bolek:

Yes, remote area and that’s by definition that mobile sauna is not power driven, it’s woods burn so you know, you can literally go wherever you want that has a boiler that you can heat up the water with by this wood so actually have a warm shower if you want so it’s made designed to be on a remote location.

Glenn:

When you know it’s going to be a sauna day for you, as you think about it, you know, from when you wake up to going to sauna the first lulu you know the cool down and even when you’re done and you’re you know tucking yourself in to bed at night as you think about the full spectrum of a sauna experience. If you had to distill it, what is your favorite moment for sauna?

Bolek:

Favorite moment I think is the end of the first session we’re actually I feel that okay, this is the heat I was missing like this is the thing and I know that very soon I will cool down and I’ll go back again but that very first moment right that it’s like the first sip of beer right this is that kind of a of a feeling that; yes, this is my place, this is where I belong.

Glenn:

So, that moment as you start to heat up or after your first round?

Bolek:

The nearing to the end of the first round right, so I’m freshly entry I still no desire. I feel that heat, this is why I’m here.

Glenn:

If you could sign up with anybody in the worlds; dead, alive, past presence, who’s the first person that comes to mind for you?

Bolek:

Right at the very top of mind would be the Prime Minister of Finland. We share I mean, so much of the passion of combining the sauna and the business or politics. I don’t pretty specific like politics, but the business part is the combined the two. This is this kind of sits in my mind and that was my top of mind.

Glenn:

Sanna Marin. Is that who you’re referring to?

Bolek:

Yes.

Glenn:

Yeah. She seems like a great person. Very natural. Yeah, great. Good choice thank you. Thank you for that. And last question I have for you Bolek is. What do you think about sauna that is most misunderstood that, you know, if you could share with others that that being a sauna fan like you are, like we are, there are still many, many people that don’t know sauna, what would you like to share with them? What do you think is most misunderstood about sauna?

Bolek:

And I think that that’s something that I oftenly have to explain that usually, when people feel hot and uncomfortable in a sauna, it’s because of lack of air. It’s not about the temperature, it’s the lack of air. So, either the ventilation is not properly constructed or designed, or the sauna is just too small, or it’s a sauna in a basement, and you just don’t have the fresh air around it. And quite often when I invite people to the sauna sessions that we are, you know, using a slightly bigger sauna, you know, not just the, you know, the two square meters, right, the minimal one. And they actually see that way, this is something completely different than I experienced in the past. And the air is that’s what’s missing. It’s not the heat. It’s the air. I think that’s a misconception.

Glenn:

Thank you. I love your answer. It’s so true. I always knew ventilation in sauna was important. But when I went back to Finland, would have been in what now two years ago, year and a half. I was really affected by good ventilation. And I was kind of under … it was an under focus for me quite frankly. But yeah, I think that when to answer my own question back to you, it’s often misunderstood. Like a lot of people say that they get tired in the sauna. And I think a lot of the fatigue comes from lack of fresh oxygen. So, I feel that that’s a beautiful answer. I think it’s quite misunderstood about good ventilation in sauna.

Bolek:

Also, the stages I mean, if you’re not a frequent sauna user, and you’re going there for 45 minutes and then you feel uncomfortable and hey, you know why would you feel any other way, you have to do the proper cycles, right? That minutes then have the same 10 to 15 minutes, relax, cooling down if you know the process and if you actually speed up your sauna use as your body allows you then if you do it right then it’s this there’s nothing on fatigue, it’s joyful, relax.

Glenn:

Joyful, and relaxing. I call that like the rubber band theory of sauna where you know, like the time to leave the hot room when the idea of an ice-cold plunge is about the best idea you’ve ever heard. And then so often in when we’re in nature, you know, when we feel the first blast of cold wind, we’re like; oh my god, I got to go back in the sauna. But if we stop and pause and kind of reprogram our conditional response to say; well wait a minute here no wait, my core is still really warm. So, I another theory that I love is listen to the core not your skin.

Bolek:

That’s a good one. That’s a good one.

Glenn:

I like it too. I love the universitysality of sauna you know, what you and I are speaking about is so universal and so we share this this bond – this beautiful bond. Any final words for listeners to Sauna Talk?

Bolek:

It was really nice talking to, we actually haven’t had the chance to meet ourselves before that and the chemistry of this of this conversation was really nice. I mean, I think it has to be something with a solid not just only that us at the end of the podcast, but I really, you know, enjoy this conversation. And thank you very much for sharing that the US insights on the sauna world.

Glenn:

Thank you, Bolek. And same for you with Poland. Again, kindred spirits on the bench. And I look forward to doing that with you one day.

Bolek:

You’re very much welcome, I’ll show you around. Thank you.